Judy Morgan – The Truth About Spaying and Neutering

Dr. Judy Morgan (00:02):

What they found is that dogs who were spayed and neutered in that six months and younger group, which has been our traditional way of doing things, the dogs that were spayed and neutered early had a much higher incidence of elbow dysplasia, hip dysplasia, arthritis problems early in life. They also discovered that there was a higher rate of cancers, osteosarcoma, which is bone cancer, hemangiosarcomata, which is a blood cancer of the spleen or kidneys or heart, much higher incidents in the animals that were spayed and neutered young.

Voiceover (00:44):

Welcome to the Doggy Dan Podcast Show, helping you unleash the greatness within your dog.

Doggy Dan (00:56):

Hello and welcome everybody to another Doggy Dan Podcast Show and today we have Dr. Judy Morgan with us. And I don't know if I'm as excited, I'm more intrigued, because today we have Dr. Judy Morgan with us. And Dr. Judy Morgan, she has these letters after her name, which I'm going to ask her what they actually mean, because I've got to be honest, and I'm a very honest person, I'm not too sure what they are. DVM CVA, CVCP, CVFT.

Doggy Dan (01:26):

She's an integrated veterinarian. She's recently retired from clinical practice. She was voted 2018 Woman of the Year in the Pet Industry, 2019 Pet Age Woman of Influence, 2019 International Association of Top Professionals Veterinarian of the Year and IAOTP 2020 Woman of Influence. She's an internationally renowned speaker and best selling author of four books on holistic pet care and dog nutrition. She's been featured on hundreds of radio and television shows worldwide, using traditional Chinese medicine food therapy. Dr. Morgan has been able to improve health and longevity for her patients, minimizing medications and reducing side effects. Dr. Judy Morgan, it is an honor to have you on the show today, welcome.

Dr. Judy Morgan (02:19):

Well, thank you very much. Thank you very much for the invitation, I really appreciate it.

Doggy Dan (02:23):

I want to get started by asking you about DVM, CVA, CVCP and CVFT? I'm always interested, yeah. Yeah, I feel a bit stupid, but I want to know and I'm an honest person, so yeah.

Dr. Judy Morgan (02:37):

Well, somebody probably said to me, "He who has the most letters, wins."

Doggy Dan (02:42):

Yeah.

Dr. Judy Morgan (02:43):

But DVM is Doctor of Veterinary Medicine. CVA is Certified Veterinary Acupuncturist, CVCP is Certified Veterinary Chiro Practitioner.

Doggy Dan (02:56):

Wow.

Dr. Judy Morgan (02:77):

And CVFT is Certified Veterinary Food Therapist.

Doggy Dan (03:01):

Got it. And this sums me up, I felt a bit stupid asking, I'll be honest. I thought maybe I should know all of those and I guess the DVM one, but the other three, it really does paint a picture of who you be, which is this really integrated vet, so I'm glad I asked.

Dr. Judy Morgan (03:16):

Yes.

Doggy Dan (03:17):

Got it. Acupuncture. Yeah, wow. Love it. So, I'm going to hand over to you, tell us a little bit about who you be. And today, of course, we're chatting about spaying and neutering, which I'm really intrigued about that. So, with that in mind, tell us about where you come from, where you are in the States and a little bit of your history before we dive into spaying and neutering of dogs.

Dr. Judy Morgan (03:43):

Okay. Well, I am actually a Jersey girl. I was born and raised and spent most of my life in New Jersey, which is on the East Coast of the US, and spent 35 years in clinical veterinary practice. I retired from clinical practice in November 2020 and moved south to North Carolina, mostly because my first granddaughter was born. She's now 15 months old and that was enough for me to vamoose from clinical practice.

Dr. Judy Morgan (04:17):

But about 2013, I also started my company, Naturally Healthy Pets. And so, my focus now is through our Naturally Healthy Pets platform. We do have a website, drjudymorgan.com, where we have over 250 products that are natural health products for dogs and cats. Actually, we now are carrying products for chickens and horses as well. And we also have an educational platform called Dr. Judy U, and that is to educate pet owners to help them help their pets live their longest, healthiest and best lives.

Doggy Dan (04:77):

Wow, brilliant. Yeah, I had a look at your website. Loved it. Love it, drjudymorgan.com. So, when it comes to spaying and neutering, what's your history there, what's your experience? Just to give you mine, I've talked to people a lot about it, but I don't really know how much I know. My knowledge really comes very much from the behavioral side of things.

Dr. Judy Morgan (05:27):

Sure.

Doggy Dan (05:28):

And I've seen what happens when a doggy comes into a doggy daycare, who have not been neutered. And yeah, this little Chihuahua, I got to tell you this story, I'll start this story. I couldn't believe it, this Chihuahua walks into a doggy daycare and he's the most humble little fella, he's tiny, he's five pounds, six pounds, 10 pounds maybe. And he's like the Pied Piper of Hamelin. He has 25 dogs in a line following him, marching around all standing over the top of him, including kind of 60 pound Rottweilers, almost bullying him.

Doggy Dan (06:10):

And I said to the lady who ran the dogie daycare, "What is going on with little Bobby? Why are they all doing that? It's his first day here." And she said, "He's entire." That's all it was and they would not leave him alone. And the attention, the unwanted attention that poor little dog got, was incredible. And that's when I went, "Got it." Because his personality could pull it off, but only just, yeah. Whereas another dog would be like, "Go away, leave me alone." So, that's where I come from, the behavioral side of things. But I'm fascinated to know where you're coming from and what your experience is with this.

Dr. Judy Morgan (06:45):

Well, it has changed dramatically over the past 30, 35 years and really most dramatically over the past 10 to 12 years. In veterinary school, when I was in school back in the early 1980s, and really continuing, even through now, the young veterinarian students are taught, "Hey, we're going to spay and neuter everything at six months of age." And generally, we talk about spaying, and this is in the US, I don't know how it is in other countries, I can speak for the US schools.

Doggy Dan (07:21):

Yep.

Dr. Judy Morgan (07:22):

Spaying at six months before they come into heat, so that we won't get an unwanted, accidental breeding. We won't have clients and owners having to deal with a dog in heat that is messy and might make a mess in the house. Not having to deal with their little female, attracting all the little boys in the neighborhood to their front doorstep or their yard. And we've talked about neutering the boys for behavioral issues. Well, it'll stop them from marking on everything. It'll stop them from developing aggressive tendencies. And certainly, with the females, if we spay them before they ever go into heat, the risk of pyometra, which is a uterine infection, is zero.

Dr. Judy Morgan (08:10):

Over the years, things have changed and we have a lot more research behind what we are doing now and my thoughts and the way that I ran the spay, neuter part of my clinic changed drastically, even how I handle my own dogs has changed over the past half a dozen years. So, with studies that are being performed, and also the other thing that we have been getting a lot of in this country, is early spay neuter, because shelters have and rescue organizations have discovered that if they adopt out a rescue animal that is intact, the chances of it having more litters are very high, because at our local shelter in New Jersey, they would have people prepay for the spay or neuter. They used this program for 20 years. People would prepay for the spay or neuter, they would take their puppy or kitten home and then they had a voucher to get the animal spayed or neutered when it hit that magic six months of age. And when they actually did the research and went back and looked, they discovered that only 30% of those animals actually did get spayed and neutered.

Doggy Dan (09:28):

Wow.

Dr. Judy Morgan (09:28):

So, even though it was prepaid, only 30% of the people actually followed through. And so, that did not solve the population problem in the area and the shelter was always overflowing with more and more unwanted litters and just not a good situation, so they adopted what a lot of shelters have adopted in the US, which is, in order for you to take that puppy or kitten or adult animal home, it is going to be spayed or neutered before it leaves our premises, or at least before it enters your household. So, they started doing that for quite a few years and it did help with the unwanted stray populations and the turn ins of litters, so that was helpful.

Dr. Judy Morgan (10:16):

But then we started seeing a lot more problems with incontinence, particularly in females, hip dysplasia, elbow dysplasia. And then, thankfully, some veterinary scientists who like to do research, I'm not one of those people, I like to read the research, I don't like to do it. There was a great study using Rottweilers and another great study using Golden Retrievers and one of the reasons those two breeds were used, is that there's such a large population of them and there's a large population of spayed and neutered, as well as intact dogs, because on the show circuit they're intact, so there's a huge population of them that were available for testing.

Dr. Judy Morgan (11:01):

And what they found is that dogs who were spayed and neutered kind of in that six months and younger group, which has been our traditional way of doing things, the dogs that were spayed and neutered early, had a much higher incidence of elbow dysplasia, hip dysplasia, arthritis problems early in life. They also discovered that there was a higher rate of cancers, osteosarcoma, which is bone cancer, hemangiosarcomata, which is a blood cancer of the spleen or kidneys or heart, much higher incidence in the animals that were spayed and neutered young. So, then we have to look at what protective effect are those hormones playing within the body? Because when we spay, we are taking out the ovaries and the uterus, so we are taking out the source of those female hormones. When we neuter, we are removing both testicles, we are removing the source of the male hormones.

Dr. Judy Morgan (12:03):

Now, the body does produce small amounts of those hormones. All females have a small amount of male hormone, all males have a small amount of female hormone, mostly produced by the adrenal glands. But what we saw was, when we took away those hormones early on, one of the things that it did, and the reason behind the arthritis, is that when we spay or neuter before the growth plates in the bones are closed, the growth plates will stay open longer in the long bones, so the bones in the legs. And what happens is those long bones continue to grow and actually push the femur, the long leg bone, out of the hip socket and actually push the radius and ulna out of the elbow socket, so we were seeing a lot more elbow and hip dysplasia.

Dr. Judy Morgan (12:55):

And if they waited and spayed and neutered after the growth plates were closed, then we didn't have that excessively long growth period of those long bones, so it's very protective. So, it totally changed for those of us who are staying up to date on what's going on in the research studies, which most traditional veterinarians, I can tell you, don't have time and it's not important to them and they are still spaying and neutering at six months or younger. But when you're coming at it from a more holistic side, you tend to look at, why are those hormones there, what are they doing for the body? And if we compare it to human research, ask any woman who has undergone an ovario hysterectomy, which is basically a spay, the hormonal changes that occur in their body, the tendency to be overweight, the tendency to have dry mucus membranes, dry eyes, it's a huge change for the body, so those hormones do a lot more than just get the dog pregnant, so that's what we've had to look at.

Doggy Dan (14:07):

Wow, that's incredible. Now, I love what you've shared and I'm sitting here going, "Wow, it's true. I've heard these rumors." It's almost like one of the conspiracy people, who's heard these stories and I'm like, "What?" But tell me, when you say it's higher, I guess that's the question, so before I jump to the… There's two questions I've got. One is, you talk about Rottweilers and Golden Retrievers.

Dr. Judy Morgan (14:40):

Yes.

Doggy Dan (14:41):

Can we kind of assume that it's the same across all the breeds? Let's answer the breed question first. Does it work the same for all breeds? That's the question.

Dr. Judy Morgan (14:50):

Actually, it doesn't. There was a great article, and I should have dug it out, there was a great article published maybe six months ago, where they compared different breeds and particularly different sizes of breeds. So, the big studies were done early on in the Rotties and in the Goldens, again, because we had a large population of them, but then somebody had this great idea that said, "Well, does a Chihuahua have the same problems as a Rottweiler?" They're opposite ends of the spectrum, so certainly for the large breed dogs where we've got a lot of long leg growth, it makes a lot of sense.

Dr. Judy Morgan (15:33):

And so, somebody actually did a comparison between a lot of different breeds, and it was found that the problems don't seem to be as big in the smaller breeds of dogs as they do in the larger breeds of dogs. And they still said that it really is better to let them reach full maturity, so if that's at 12 months or 15 months, now, if we're talking large breeds of dogs, some of those dogs mature very slowly, they also have a very short life anyway, so we're looking at an Irish Wolfhound whose lifespan might be nine years and they don't finish growing until they're at five years.

Doggy Dan (16:16):

Wow yeah, yep. Got you. And in terms of percentages, what is the increase? I mean, I guess where I'm coming from is you hear it's going to be an in increased chance of arthritis and hip dysplasia, cancer, blood cancer. What are we talking about there, are we talking like a doubling? Is it an incredibly high rate increase or is it…

Dr. Judy Morgan (16:42):

Unfortunately, I don't have the numbers in front of me, but it was a significant enough change, and the arthritis, I would say, it's doubling and tripling and more. For the cancer, probably a doubling. And again, I don't have those numbers in front of me, but it was significant enough that it was published in research journals, published and really talked about in the veterinary community, so if it wasn't significant, if it was like, "Oh, he's a 10% greater chance," nobody would talk about it, because it wouldn't be big enough for us to stop doing what we've done traditionally.

Dr. Judy Morgan (17:24):

But it is a big enough change, particularly with the arthritis, and I've seen it looking back over the years of how we used to do things and then we changed the way we were doing things in my practice. It made a huge difference. The health and longevity of the animals changed pretty drastically.

Doggy Dan (17:48):

So, what you are saying is you've stopped doing the spaying and neutering so young, and you've actually seen the change, is that what you're saying?

Dr. Judy Morgan (17:54):

Yes, yes. So, what we started doing is, and it's a conversation that has to be had with every client, because there are some clients, their dog roams at will, that's not the client that I'm… And if they're not going to be responsible about their… I did a school talk once and a little boy came up to me very proudly. He was in eighth grade, he came up to me proudly, he said, "Our dog has had 80 puppies."

Doggy Dan (18:24):

Oh dear.

Dr. Judy Morgan (18:25):

And I just looked at him and said, "Can I give you a card for spaying your dog?"

Doggy Dan (18:30):

Yeah.

Dr. Judy Morgan (18:31):

So, clearly it has to be the conversation with the right clients, but what we started doing is waiting until we knew the growth plates were closed, looking at the breed and what age that was most likely to occur, so for most of our dogs, for the females, we were letting them go through at least two heat cycles, so the first one generally is around seven months, but somewhere between six and nine, and the second one's going to be somewhere between 15 and 18 months, most likely. So, we were looking at spaying these dogs at 18 to 24 months of age, so we knew that they were through with their growth phase.

Dr. Judy Morgan (19:14):

Some clients chose to leave them intact longer if there was any thought in the back of their mind, "Well, I want to show the dog, I want to breed the dog," something like that, we would leave them intact longer. For the males, frankly, unless we had a huge aggression issue, we had gotten to the point we were recommending not neutering. And for the first time in my life, I have two unneutered males in my house, which is…

Doggy Dan (19:44):

Whoa.

Dr. Judy Morgan (19:44):

Yeah, very unusual. My girls are spayed. Actually, I only have one girl right now, and she was spayed late, she was spayed at four, so that makes it a lot easier. Again, it has to be the right pet owner, because to have unneutered males and unspayed females in the same household, you have to be good at organizing and separating and keeping track of what's going on, so it is a very individualized issue.

Dr. Judy Morgan (20:18):

And I've had clients come to me and say, "Look, I can't handle an unneutered male and an unspayed female, which one do I do?" And generally, we'll spay the female, unless their male is causing big issues, but I really could go either way. It's kind of up to the owner on that one, which they choose to do. But there are a lot of people, there are a lot of breeders out there, who manage 15 dogs in their house, everybody unspayed, unneutered and puppies, so it can be done, but it does take that person who is wanting to do that.

Doggy Dan (20:54):

Fascinating, it's a podcast right there. Two entire male dogs wandering around the same house. I mean, part of why I'm so grateful to jump on this call with you is, you are kind of coming from a… You're like, what do you call those people who go into the wild, one of those explorers, the initial venturers, you know the ones?

Dr. Judy Morgan (21:14):

Hey, somebody has to blaze the trail.

Doggy Dan (21:18):

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So, tell us, what's it like having two entire male dogs, because I'd imagine there's a bit of a myth for me around it. Nearly all the dogs I've worked with have been neutered. So, is it true, I mean, for want of a better word, are they wandering around the house… I've seen dogs who aren't neutered and they're pissing seven, eight, nine, 10 times an hour. And I'm like, "Whoa."

Dr. Judy Morgan (21:47):

Oh, I do have that issue.

Doggy Dan (21:47):

Okay, okay.

Dr. Judy Morgan (21:48):

So, my dogs wear belly bands, my boys wear belly bands. I do a load of dog laundry every day.

Doggy Dan (21:54):

So, a belly band, just explain that for those of us who aren't aware. So, the belly band sounds like a…

Dr. Judy Morgan (22:00):

It's a wrap. It's a wrap and it's actually something that we sell on our website. We have them made and it's got a very thick absorbent pad and then it Velcros up across their back. Dogs wear them great, it's no problem and they're washable and reusable, so I just have a whole bunch of them, and I have my little doggy laundry, and we just do doggie laundry, because my older male, he really does like to mark. And he's so funny, because he's wearing his belly band and I see him go over and lift his leg on something. I'm like, "Well, that's funny, you didn't hit anything, you got your band, now you're wet."

Doggy Dan (22:33):

Yeah.

Dr. Judy Morgan (22:34):

So, it's fine and the dogs wear them fine.

Doggy Dan (22:38):

Fascinating, fascinating.

Dr. Judy Morgan (22:41):

So, he's about eight years old, and my younger one that's intact is only about four months old right now, so he doesn't even know what he's doing with him yet, but they'll be fine.

Doggy Dan (22:51):

Yep, yep.

Dr. Judy Morgan (22:52):

And all of my dogs are also trained to use washable piddle pads, because if we travel and we're staying in a hotel and I can't get my dogs outside, I can throw down a waterproof piddle pad and not worry about it. So, for me doing doggy laundry is just no big deal, but I like having that option available. And we also have diapers for the little girls as well. My girls don't need to wear… My girl, she doesn't need to wear them. I had an incontinent female, so she had to wear them. So, for me, having particularly the intact males, it's just not a big deal. And again, it's a personal thing. For some people, they would say, "Oh my gosh, I'm not doing pee laundry for my dog, that sounds horrible." It's no big deal for me, so yeah.

Doggy Dan (23:49):

Yeah, no, I get it, I get it. Everybody's in a different situation and a lot of it can depend on where you live and what sort of lifestyle you've got. If you've got three kids and you live in the city and you're busy as can be, it's different from if you live out in the countryside and…

Dr. Judy Morgan (24:04):

Yeah.

Doggy Dan (24:04):

It's very different depending on how much room you've got and…

Dr. Judy Morgan (24:07):

Exactly, exactly.

Doggy Dan (24:09):

Now, the other question I've got is regarding your entire male, the aggression side of things. Does he get more attention or do you think he's more ….? I mean, it's hard to know how he'd be without his testicles, but does he get attention from other dogs? I guess that's my real question. I know it's hard to tell, because you haven't got the-

Dr. Judy Morgan (24:31):

No, I mean, the puppy thinks he's the best thing since sliced bread, but it's also because… Well, first of all, I have Cavalier King Charles Spaniels and English Toy Spaniels, so they're not aggressive to begin with, but my intact older male is low man on the totem pole.

Doggy Dan (24:51):

Gotcha.

Dr. Judy Morgan (24:53):

He wouldn't know how to be… If somebody attacked him, he would roll over and play dead. That's who he is. I used to, before I had Cavaliers, I had Dobermans. If I had a 100 pound intact Doberman male, maybe I would look at it a little differently, but I mean, again, my Dobermans were always marshmallows as well. I had a Rottweiler, he was a marshmallow, so a lot of it has to do with how well socialized they are. I mean, you're a dog trainer, you know it has to do with socialization, it has to do with respecting boundaries and training.

Dr. Judy Morgan (25:36):

I have seen some very aggressive male dogs. I've had to work with some very aggressive males, I've had to work with aggressive females. So, I think a lot of it has as to do with training and certainly if someone came to me with an aggressive, intact male, I would definitely have a discussion with them over the potential that getting rid of some of that testosterone might make him a little less pushy, but if it's not accompanied by training and a good quality diet, that's not going to contribute to his inflammatory nature. It's not a quick, "Oh, we'll neuter him and that'll make him a sweetheart," if he already has aggressive tendencies. There's a lot more to it.

Doggy Dan (26:29):

Yeah. Yeah, it's not an alternative to training.

Dr. Judy Morgan (26:34):

Exactly.

Doggy Dan (26:35):

Are you going to train your dog or are you going to neuter your dog?

Dr. Judy Morgan (26:37):

Exactly.

Doggy Dan (26:38):

Which one? Yeah, but you have definitely noticed that, I mean, I just want to confirm, you've noticed that the dogs who get neutered, that testosterone level, when it drops, definitely does reduce some of that.

Dr. Judy Morgan (26:55):

Well, it generally will decrease marking behaviors, although my little neutered male, he was neutered when he was nine or 10 months old, he likes to mark things.

Doggy Dan (27:09):

What about the aggression side of things, do you find it reduces that?

Dr. Judy Morgan (27:13):

Perhaps. Perhaps. It's really hard to say, because it is really interesting that I have had eight week old puppies come in and be incredibly aggressive.

Doggy Dan (27:26):

Yeah.

Dr. Judy Morgan (27:28):

Generally, we're talking Rottweilers, Shepherds, dogs that are made to be guard dogs or working dogs, and some of them are being bred for that personality. But when I see an eight week old puppy that comes in and it is already aggressively going for people, he doesn't have enough testosterone yet to be causing that to all be testosterone related.

Doggy Dan (27:52):

Yes, got you.

Dr. Judy Morgan (27:54):

For some of them…

Doggy Dan (27:77):

It's temperament is what you're saying. A lot of it is this… Yeah, totally, gotcha.

Dr. Judy Morgan (28:01):

Exactly. It's that whole, is it nature or nurture?

Doggy Dan (28:04):

Yeah.

Dr. Judy Morgan (28:04):

It's a combination.

Doggy Dan (28:06):

Yeah, that's a great point. I mean, I've got one dog, he's called Jack, he's a Texan Catahoula Leopard dog, part Catahoula, and he is the most dominant beast I've probably ever met, by nature. He's not aggressive and he's not bad, but the thought of him having more testosterone, it's like whoa.

Dr. Judy Morgan (28:33):

Yeah.

Doggy Dan (28:34):

And also, I've got to say this, this dog can pee-pee, he pee-pees like a race horse. There was one time where he can stand there for kind of probably well over a minute and look at you and smile and carry on and carry on and carry on and you stand there laughing, you crack a joke, and he keeps going and he keeps going. We've often joked, you could run and get a camera and come back and he's still there. He's just…

Dr. Judy Morgan (28:59):

Yeah.

Doggy Dan (29:00):

There seems to be more liquid comes out than goes in. I don't understand how that happens, so it's interesting.

Dr. Judy Morgan (29:08):

Yeah, that's my male too.

Doggy Dan (29:10):

Interesting, interesting. So, one question, before I forget, is to do with the feeding. Does the feeding, if a dog has been fed kibble, does it make a difference if it's been fed kibble or raw food when it comes to cancer and the spaying and neutering, does that affect anything, have you found?

Dr. Judy Morgan (29:32):

Yes.

Doggy Dan (29:36):

Oh.

Dr. Judy Morgan (29:36):

There have been some really great studies. Some of them are frankly, 15 years old, showing that fresh food in the bowl, even if it's only about a third of the diet versus all kibble, increases health and longevity, decreases risk of developing cancer by a large percentage. And there was a great study done last year that talked about allergies, and I know this is a different topic, but talked about allergies and the inheritability of allergies from parents to offspring.

Dr. Judy Morgan (30:13):

And if the parents were kibble fed and the puppies were kibble fed, those puppies are going to have allergies their whole life. So, we're talking like atopic dermatitis, the inhaled allergies, environmental allergies and food allergies can play into it as well. Dogs, where the puppies were weaned straight onto raw food, had a significantly lower risk, even though they had inherited the allergy propensity from their parents. It was about a 75% lower risk of displaying allergy problems throughout their life.

Dr. Judy Morgan (30:48):

If the parents had been raw fed and the puppies were raw fed the chances of them inheriting the allergy component went almost to zero. So raw feeding has… And you know what? I hate to even say raw feeding, whole food feeding versus kibble, because some people just can't stand the idea of feeding raw, they're afraid of it because the media and their veterinarians have made them be afraid of raw food. My dogs have been raw fed for 20 years and do very well. My oldest dog lived to be 19.

Doggy Dan (31:25):

Wow.

Dr. Judy Morgan (31:26):

And he was a puppy mill rescue, had a million problems when we got him, but he lived to be 19, had a great life. We adopted another one at 14 and he lived to 18.

Doggy Dan (31:37):

Wow.

Dr. Judy Morgan (31:38):

Came with a million problems as well. And that was taking them off poor quality diet, putting them on high quality diet and lots of supplementation really sort of supporting their systems that needed supporting. So, I think that we can see huge differences in the health of our pets just by feeding real food instead of dead food.

Doggy Dan (32:01):

Totally.

Dr. Judy Morgan (32:03):

And that's been my main focus for a lot of my career, is all about nutrition.

Doggy Dan (32:09):

What about the raw food when it comes to problems associated with spaying and neutering, does it affect spaying and neutering in any way there?

Dr. Judy Morgan (32:16):

I don't think so other than I think that any dog who's fed a whole food diet is going to have a stronger immune system, is going to heal more or quickly from surgery. And one of the things that we see, particularly if a dog is spayed or neutered middle age or later, so if you delay and then you decide to spay, let's say, at five years old or neuter at five years old, one of the things that I would caution people, is about six months after surgery, check their thyroid levels.

Dr. Judy Morgan (32:44):

An awful lot, particularly if they're kibble fed, but an awful lot of these dogs, their thyroid will crash, because it's part of the endocrine system, which is the glandular system in the body, so we just took away their ovaries or their testes and now their thyroid is working harder, their adrenal gland is working harder, their pituitary gland is working harder and a lot of them will crash and become hypothyroid.

Doggy Dan (33:05):

Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. There you go, guys, take it all in. I've learned so much, I'm like, "Whoa." So, in a nutshell, I'm going to try my best to do an in a nutshell summary. In a nutshell, it used to be that we thought let's just spay and neuter at eight to 10, 12 weeks sort of thing, but now it seems like leaving them to six months, a year, at least till they've had their first litter if they're females and kind of stop growing, if we can. And that can be up to 18 months, you're saying, or even older for the bigger breeds?

Dr. Judy Morgan (33:40):

Yeah.

Doggy Dan (33:40):

Is possibly the way to go. But it is still a bit of a balance, would you agree that it's still, there are the downsides of doing it later, is that there can be more aggression turn up? I mean, where I'm coming from is I've worked in a doggy daycare where I've seen these dogs turn up who are entire, and it's like, "Oh my gosh, it's like dynamite plus TNT just walks into the…" But then I guess if you have to put him in a doggy daycare, that can be an issue, but there's always ways around things.

Dr. Judy Morgan (34:08):

It can be an issue. A lot of the day cares will not allow them. And I had a stallion, a Paso Fino stallion, and he spent the first 15 years of his life in a paddock by himself, because clearly we didn't want him out with the mares, and it was thought that he would be too aggressive being out with other horses. So, he stayed in a paddock by himself. I inherited the horse when he was about 15, 16 years old and I just could not stand watching him pace the fence and be so miserable. And even when you would go to lead him, he would be bitey, his personality, he was a sweet guy, but it was just like, "Oh my God, you have all these horrible male characteristics."

Doggy Dan (34:51):

Yep.

Dr. Judy Morgan (34:51):

But I did not want to castrate him at 16 years of age, so I was boarding and trying to find a boarding facility, kind of like intact dogs, trying to find a boarding facility was tricky, but I found one and they had a 40 acre field with 15 gelded horses, so castrated males, out in the field. And I said, "Can we try him?" And she said, "Yeah, let's give it a try." We put him out there and he went out there. It wasn't a very big horse, but he went out there and he decided he was going to be boss of the field and he was going to take everybody on, while the other horses were bigger than him and within five minutes they had settled that and he said, "Huh, how about that?" And that was that.

Dr. Judy Morgan (35:29):

And he lived another 10 years out in a field with other geldings. His personality was so docile, he never got gelded, but just giving him an outlet to socialize with others, to learn how to be with others, I think the intact male dogs certainly can learn. My intact males, they're very social creatures, they would never consider… And again, it may be breed related, but I have had clients with multiple large male intact large breed dogs that have just never been a problem.

Doggy Dan (36:07):

Yeah.

Dr. Judy Morgan (36:07):

So, I think it's socialization and training early on, and then learning the personality of your particular dog and whether or not that's going to work out for him.

Doggy Dan (36:18):

More of a case by case approach rather than a blanket kind of…

Dr. Judy Morgan (36:22):

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

Doggy Dan (36:24):

That makes total sense. Wow, beautiful. Beautiful, beautiful.

Dr. Judy Morgan (36:29):

It's kind of like that little Chihuahua you were talking about, he had no problem being intact. He wasn't going in there jumping on everybody, he was just going in there.

Doggy Dan (36:34):

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Dr. Judy Morgan, it has been enlightening. I love it. Brilliant, I've learned so much more new stuff. It's great. Now, you mentioned something early on, you mentioned another website, I believe, or a business. Is there a website, is it just drjudymorgan.com or was there another website, just so we can put it into the…

Dr. Judy Morgan (36:77):

So, we have drjudymorgan.com and we also have educational courses that are on Dr. Judy U, but you could get to those through the Dr. Judy Morgan site.

Doggy Dan (37:06):

Okay, I'm curious, Dr. Judy U, is that Y-O-U on the end?

Dr. Judy Morgan (37:10):

No, U as in university, so it's just Dr. Judy U.

Doggy Dan (37:14):

Beautiful, just the letter U, Dr. Judy U. I love it, dot com I presume at the end, is that right?

Dr. Judy Morgan (37:19):

Yes. Yes.

Doggy Dan (37:20):

Wow. Well, is there anything else you would like to share with us or information you'd like to share or websites or anything else you'd like to share? Over to you, so that's just as we close this up, wrap this up.

Dr. Judy Morgan (37:34):

Well, anybody who is interested in learning about health and longevity, if you sign up for our newsletter, you will get a white paper that I wrote that is six ways to keep your pet naturally healthy. And we want to help educate people not to just accept the status quo. Not just accept, "We spay and neuter at six months." Not to just accept, "We give vaccines every single year." Or not to accept that we should use all these dreadful, horrible chemicals on our dogs and cats.

Doggy Dan (38:06):

Yeah.

Dr. Judy Morgan (38:06):

And that's what our educational platform is about. It's about educating the pet owner so that they can have intelligent conversations with their veterinarian and not feel that they're backed into a corner, or they don't have a choice. It would be my goal for every single pet owner to have their pets live two decades and that's what we're working toward.

Doggy Dan (38:27):

Wow, brilliant. Wow, I love it. I'm excited. The thought of dogs living to 20 years old, is really beautiful. I got to say, I know a lot of clients, their dogs, they feed them kind of the very expensive, well known brands and I just want to say this, and their dogs do seem to often, they die very young.

Dr. Judy Morgan (38:49):

They do.

Doggy Dan (38:50):

It's frightening.

Dr. Judy Morgan (38:52):

They do. We're feeding dead food. We're feeding dead food, and they might survive, but they don't thrive.

Doggy Dan (38:77):

Yeah.

Dr. Judy Morgan (38:77):

And we want our pets to thrive, so tons of nutrition information on our website, I've written two cookbooks for dogs, one is called Yin & Yang Nutrition, maximizing health with whole foods, not drugs, so if you have a dog with kidney disease, we've got recipes. You don't have to be backed into a corner of feeding very expensive prescription kibble that is dead food made with bad ingredients.

Doggy Dan (39:25):

Yep. Yep. Wow. Dr. Judy Morgan, it has been a pleasure, thank you for being on the show today. It's been wonderful.

Dr. Judy Morgan (39:33):

Thank you very much.

Doggy Dan (39:34):

And for those of you listening, thank you for joining us today and all the notes, if you want to read what we've discussed here, you can go to theonlinedogtrainer.com/drjudymorgan. And of course you can go to Dr. Judy Morgan's site, that's drjudymorgan.com and all the links will be written up and placed on my site too, so thank you for listening everybody, it's been a lot of fun. Have a great day, as always, take care, bye-bye.

Voiceover (40:09):

You've been listening to another episode of the Doggy Dan Podcast Show, bringing you one step closer to creating harmony with your dog.